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	<title>Comments on: Cyber Storm II &#8211; US, UK &amp; 3 Others Involved in Mock Cyberwar</title>
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	<link>http://www.darknet.org.uk/2008/03/cyber-storm-ii-us-uk-3-others-involved-in-mock-cyberwar/</link>
	<description>Ethical Hacking, Penetration Testing &#38; Computer Security</description>
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		<title>By: James C</title>
		<link>http://www.darknet.org.uk/2008/03/cyber-storm-ii-us-uk-3-others-involved-in-mock-cyberwar/#comment-118436</link>
		<dc:creator>James C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Mar 2008 19:35:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darknet.org.uk/2008/03/cyber-storm-ii-us-uk-3-others-involved-in-mock-cyberwar/#comment-118436</guid>
		<description>@Pantagruel  
Well put.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Pantagruel<br />
Well put.</p>
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		<title>By: Pantagruel</title>
		<link>http://www.darknet.org.uk/2008/03/cyber-storm-ii-us-uk-3-others-involved-in-mock-cyberwar/#comment-118240</link>
		<dc:creator>Pantagruel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Mar 2008 19:22:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darknet.org.uk/2008/03/cyber-storm-ii-us-uk-3-others-involved-in-mock-cyberwar/#comment-118240</guid>
		<description>@Reticent

MMM too bad it turns out to be a &#039;paper&#039; excercise. A scenario book can only be tested for it effectiveness against a controlled real world test.
It&#039;s much like a fire drill, the evac process is dull and tiresome. Learn your people how to extinguish a real fire (it&#039;s fun burning 250 ml of gasoline) with a CO2 extinguisher and the drill will be remembered.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Reticent</p>
<p>MMM too bad it turns out to be a &#8216;paper&#8217; excercise. A scenario book can only be tested for it effectiveness against a controlled real world test.<br />
It&#8217;s much like a fire drill, the evac process is dull and tiresome. Learn your people how to extinguish a real fire (it&#8217;s fun burning 250 ml of gasoline) with a CO2 extinguisher and the drill will be remembered.</p>
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		<title>By: zupakomputer</title>
		<link>http://www.darknet.org.uk/2008/03/cyber-storm-ii-us-uk-3-others-involved-in-mock-cyberwar/#comment-118170</link>
		<dc:creator>zupakomputer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Mar 2008 13:02:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darknet.org.uk/2008/03/cyber-storm-ii-us-uk-3-others-involved-in-mock-cyberwar/#comment-118170</guid>
		<description>ECHELONs keyword detector would have found that reference to itself, probably while it was still in the process of being sent to this website.

Well, at the very least, the computer security game means well paid work and you get to do videogames that are way more fun than most offerings these days. I probably won&#039;t get a chance to do that either though - so I&#039;m offering my services in advance of any further disappointments to the botnet people. Keeps you in a job, don&#039;t it.

Just to go off on a minor tangent here - I can see that there&#039;s going to be apps for dealing with attacks in realtime, that are going to function very much like classic (ie - arcade) videogames - a bit like House of the Dead. If it&#039;s not immediately apparent what is meant there - applications that identify things like infected packets, flag them, and allow for commands to be entered on how to deal with them, in a graphical representive environment.
I&#039;m not really meaning this&#039;ll happen just for a laugh, although that itself is amusing, it&#039;s more that when you&#039;re dealing with realtime scenarios it&#039;d be easier to be able to interact with the data if it&#039;s shown graphically - quicker than using many command lines and having to lock / unlock windows, and typing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ECHELONs keyword detector would have found that reference to itself, probably while it was still in the process of being sent to this website.</p>
<p>Well, at the very least, the computer security game means well paid work and you get to do videogames that are way more fun than most offerings these days. I probably won&#8217;t get a chance to do that either though &#8211; so I&#8217;m offering my services in advance of any further disappointments to the botnet people. Keeps you in a job, don&#8217;t it.</p>
<p>Just to go off on a minor tangent here &#8211; I can see that there&#8217;s going to be apps for dealing with attacks in realtime, that are going to function very much like classic (ie &#8211; arcade) videogames &#8211; a bit like House of the Dead. If it&#8217;s not immediately apparent what is meant there &#8211; applications that identify things like infected packets, flag them, and allow for commands to be entered on how to deal with them, in a graphical representive environment.<br />
I&#8217;m not really meaning this&#8217;ll happen just for a laugh, although that itself is amusing, it&#8217;s more that when you&#8217;re dealing with realtime scenarios it&#8217;d be easier to be able to interact with the data if it&#8217;s shown graphically &#8211; quicker than using many command lines and having to lock / unlock windows, and typing.</p>
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		<title>By: arley</title>
		<link>http://www.darknet.org.uk/2008/03/cyber-storm-ii-us-uk-3-others-involved-in-mock-cyberwar/#comment-118059</link>
		<dc:creator>arley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 23:33:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darknet.org.uk/2008/03/cyber-storm-ii-us-uk-3-others-involved-in-mock-cyberwar/#comment-118059</guid>
		<description>Those are the very same nations of the UKUSA Community, or as you may know, founders/suporters of the ECHELON Spy system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Those are the very same nations of the UKUSA Community, or as you may know, founders/suporters of the ECHELON Spy system.</p>
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		<title>By: eM3rC</title>
		<link>http://www.darknet.org.uk/2008/03/cyber-storm-ii-us-uk-3-others-involved-in-mock-cyberwar/#comment-118047</link>
		<dc:creator>eM3rC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 23:08:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darknet.org.uk/2008/03/cyber-storm-ii-us-uk-3-others-involved-in-mock-cyberwar/#comment-118047</guid>
		<description>Actually, you can have an attack and have some positive results. Take the military for example, they know there is going to be an attack yet it still helps the soldiers. I know know how many members here have heard of an event called DEFCON (if not check it out!) but basically it uses mock hacking events. Although stealth can be part of the hacking attack it is not the only part. Even if these countries know about the attacks there are several factors that you might not be thinking of. First, the techniques. They might know about it but they don&#039;t know how the hackers plan to get in. There are hundreds of thousands of possible things that could be done so they would have to be watching everything at once, all the time. Next, the period set aside for the operation. They might be on standby or ordered to act as though they do not really know about an attack. To rule this out the amount of time set aside for the attack could be some were around a month so although they might be somewhat prepared, they wouldn&#039;t know when the hackers would hit. Basically what I&#039;m getting at is the drill is excellent and although the governments might be anticipating the attack, it would still be very helpful for the security teams.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, you can have an attack and have some positive results. Take the military for example, they know there is going to be an attack yet it still helps the soldiers. I know know how many members here have heard of an event called DEFCON (if not check it out!) but basically it uses mock hacking events. Although stealth can be part of the hacking attack it is not the only part. Even if these countries know about the attacks there are several factors that you might not be thinking of. First, the techniques. They might know about it but they don&#8217;t know how the hackers plan to get in. There are hundreds of thousands of possible things that could be done so they would have to be watching everything at once, all the time. Next, the period set aside for the operation. They might be on standby or ordered to act as though they do not really know about an attack. To rule this out the amount of time set aside for the attack could be some were around a month so although they might be somewhat prepared, they wouldn&#8217;t know when the hackers would hit. Basically what I&#8217;m getting at is the drill is excellent and although the governments might be anticipating the attack, it would still be very helpful for the security teams.</p>
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		<title>By: Reticent</title>
		<link>http://www.darknet.org.uk/2008/03/cyber-storm-ii-us-uk-3-others-involved-in-mock-cyberwar/#comment-118027</link>
		<dc:creator>Reticent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 20:17:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darknet.org.uk/2008/03/cyber-storm-ii-us-uk-3-others-involved-in-mock-cyberwar/#comment-118027</guid>
		<description>I work for a company which is involved in some of these tests. They are hypothetical attack&#039;s, i.e What would you do if X happened? DOS attacks, malware/virus outbreaks etc. Any reference to companies &#039;counter-attacking&#039; or resulting power outages sound more ficticious than the cyberstorm tests themselves. There are no emulated attacks, unless you think a few plain text emails with some scenariors are :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I work for a company which is involved in some of these tests. They are hypothetical attack&#8217;s, i.e What would you do if X happened? DOS attacks, malware/virus outbreaks etc. Any reference to companies &#8216;counter-attacking&#8217; or resulting power outages sound more ficticious than the cyberstorm tests themselves. There are no emulated attacks, unless you think a few plain text emails with some scenariors are <img src='http://www.darknet.org.uk/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Doey</title>
		<link>http://www.darknet.org.uk/2008/03/cyber-storm-ii-us-uk-3-others-involved-in-mock-cyberwar/#comment-117999</link>
		<dc:creator>Doey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 17:06:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darknet.org.uk/2008/03/cyber-storm-ii-us-uk-3-others-involved-in-mock-cyberwar/#comment-117999</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Mmm, isn’t there a stupid law in cyberspace that’s like the stupid laws in meatspace, whereby you aren’t allowed to attack, or spy on, someone else that is attacking you, without it being considered that you’re the aggressor rather than it being seen for what it is - removing a threat and / or identifying it.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

there used to be, at least for the U.S. anyway.  it had to deal with reasonable expectation of privacy.  in the case of government systems, they have banners that pop up saying you will be monitored. however, if someone were to break into that system, and get direct shell access...they may not see that banner.  thus, they can argue that b/c there was no banner, they had a reasonable expectation of privacy and could not be spied on.  however, i do believe that one of the few good things regarding teh patriot act, was a portion called something like the hacker tresspasser act thingy (very technical).  this allows an agency to watch and monitor those connections.  i could be wrong on this.  but thsi is what i&#039;ve heard (or at least how i&#039;ve interpreted it) from a lawyer whose expertise is in government cyber crimes.//</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Mmm, isn’t there a stupid law in cyberspace that’s like the stupid laws in meatspace, whereby you aren’t allowed to attack, or spy on, someone else that is attacking you, without it being considered that you’re the aggressor rather than it being seen for what it is &#8211; removing a threat and / or identifying it.</p></blockquote>
<p>there used to be, at least for the U.S. anyway.  it had to deal with reasonable expectation of privacy.  in the case of government systems, they have banners that pop up saying you will be monitored. however, if someone were to break into that system, and get direct shell access&#8230;they may not see that banner.  thus, they can argue that b/c there was no banner, they had a reasonable expectation of privacy and could not be spied on.  however, i do believe that one of the few good things regarding teh patriot act, was a portion called something like the hacker tresspasser act thingy (very technical).  this allows an agency to watch and monitor those connections.  i could be wrong on this.  but thsi is what i&#8217;ve heard (or at least how i&#8217;ve interpreted it) from a lawyer whose expertise is in government cyber crimes.//</p>
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		<title>By: zupakomputer</title>
		<link>http://www.darknet.org.uk/2008/03/cyber-storm-ii-us-uk-3-others-involved-in-mock-cyberwar/#comment-117965</link>
		<dc:creator>zupakomputer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 13:07:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darknet.org.uk/2008/03/cyber-storm-ii-us-uk-3-others-involved-in-mock-cyberwar/#comment-117965</guid>
		<description>Mmm, isn&#039;t there a stupid law in cyberspace that&#039;s like the stupid laws in meatspace, whereby you aren&#039;t allowed to attack, or spy on, someone else that is attacking you, without it being considered that you&#039;re the aggressor rather than it being seen for what it is - removing a threat and / or identifying it.

&#039;contrary to the spirit of the exercise&#039; seems to be entrenched in that mindset - as if in reality any attacker is going to back-off, or be fighting you on some noble terms of yesteryear.

That said, as with meatspace again, can we expect to see a malicious breacher that has a counter-attack dealt them, then try to sue whoever they were trying to attack for damages?!

Remember I&#039;m UK based, I know that it&#039;s actually legal to protect yourself in some other countries. And people wonder why the UKs so full of delinquent a-holes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mmm, isn&#8217;t there a stupid law in cyberspace that&#8217;s like the stupid laws in meatspace, whereby you aren&#8217;t allowed to attack, or spy on, someone else that is attacking you, without it being considered that you&#8217;re the aggressor rather than it being seen for what it is &#8211; removing a threat and / or identifying it.</p>
<p>&#8216;contrary to the spirit of the exercise&#8217; seems to be entrenched in that mindset &#8211; as if in reality any attacker is going to back-off, or be fighting you on some noble terms of yesteryear.</p>
<p>That said, as with meatspace again, can we expect to see a malicious breacher that has a counter-attack dealt them, then try to sue whoever they were trying to attack for damages?!</p>
<p>Remember I&#8217;m UK based, I know that it&#8217;s actually legal to protect yourself in some other countries. And people wonder why the UKs so full of delinquent a-holes.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian Kemmish</title>
		<link>http://www.darknet.org.uk/2008/03/cyber-storm-ii-us-uk-3-others-involved-in-mock-cyberwar/#comment-117960</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian Kemmish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 12:22:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darknet.org.uk/2008/03/cyber-storm-ii-us-uk-3-others-involved-in-mock-cyberwar/#comment-117960</guid>
		<description>I seem to remember seeing some coverage of Cyber Storm I in the traditional media.  As I recall, some of the commercial targets decided that attack was the best form of defence, and made strenuous and partially successful efforts to take out the machines that were attacking them.

The public sector people in charge were said to have scolded these companies for their initiative, claiming that it was &quot;contrary to the spirit of the exercise&quot;....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I seem to remember seeing some coverage of Cyber Storm I in the traditional media.  As I recall, some of the commercial targets decided that attack was the best form of defence, and made strenuous and partially successful efforts to take out the machines that were attacking them.</p>
<p>The public sector people in charge were said to have scolded these companies for their initiative, claiming that it was &#8220;contrary to the spirit of the exercise&#8221;&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: James C</title>
		<link>http://www.darknet.org.uk/2008/03/cyber-storm-ii-us-uk-3-others-involved-in-mock-cyberwar/#comment-117936</link>
		<dc:creator>James C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 10:19:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darknet.org.uk/2008/03/cyber-storm-ii-us-uk-3-others-involved-in-mock-cyberwar/#comment-117936</guid>
		<description>You can&#039;t have a Mock Cyber Attack. This hole thing is like me tell a client company &quot;Ok, tell your tech boys I’m going to be pentesting at 12.30am to 1.30pm everyday next week&quot; if they know I’m testing(speaking from experience) then they will update all the systems that they haven&#039;t update since the last time the knew I was testing and temporally enforce sticker ACLs and password policies(which get changed back when 1 or 2 people forget there password). 
No tech department wants egg on there face.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You can&#8217;t have a Mock Cyber Attack. This hole thing is like me tell a client company &#8220;Ok, tell your tech boys I’m going to be pentesting at 12.30am to 1.30pm everyday next week&#8221; if they know I’m testing(speaking from experience) then they will update all the systems that they haven&#8217;t update since the last time the knew I was testing and temporally enforce sticker ACLs and password policies(which get changed back when 1 or 2 people forget there password).<br />
No tech department wants egg on there face.</p>
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